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Subject Topic: How the US looted $billions from the Jews Post Reply Post New Topic
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twiw
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Posted: 18/January/2006 at 15:00 | IP Logged  |  Copy the link in order to refer to this post Quote twiw

The US stole $billions from the Jews directly after WW2, while occupying Germany.

Don't google - ever heard about that?

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tude dog
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Posted: 18/January/2006 at 15:07 | IP Logged  |  Copy the link in order to refer to this post Quote tude dog

twiw wrote:

The US stole $billions from the Jews directly after WW2, while occupying Germany.

Don't google - ever heard about that?

No

Old wizened one, may I Google now?

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twiw
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Posted: 18/January/2006 at 15:31 | IP Logged  |  Copy the link in order to refer to this post Quote twiw

tude dog wrote:
Old wizened one, may I Google now?

Sure, just don't post it yet, I first want to see if that issue is that well known in the US as the Swiss gold deals with the Nazis.

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TriMT7
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Posted: 18/January/2006 at 17:40 | IP Logged  |  Copy the link in order to refer to this post Quote TriMT7

twiw wrote:
Don't google - ever heard about that?

Are you refering to the "gold train"? If so, your $ amount is off by a few tens of hundreds of millions... and I DO believe that the US government has settled a lawsuit from survivors reagrding the incident a couple years ago...

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twiw
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Posted: 21/January/2006 at 11:11 | IP Logged  |  Copy the link in order to refer to this post Quote twiw

TriMT7 wrote:
Are you refering to the "gold train"?

Yes.

 

TriMT7 wrote:
If so, your $ amount is off by a few tens of hundreds of millions...

No. the original value of the train was about $50-200 million. That's plenty of $billions today.

TriMT7 wrote:
and I DO believe that the US government has settled a lawsuit from survivors reagrding the incident a couple years ago...

Yes.  http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N11475027.htm

25 million $.

Switzerland and others have paid BILLIONS.

Quote:

At the urging of the United States, governments and institutions worldwide have been conducting unpleasant research, facing long-suppressed facts and restituting assets belonging to Holocaust survivors. The test for the United States is now, as mediators attempt to conclude a three-year dispute before a federal district court hearing in Miami in a matter of days.

As is now well-recognized, Nazi persecution of Jews and other minorities involved theft on a breathtaking scale. Over the past decade, German, French, Austrian and Swiss firms and governments have paid $8 billion to victims. Relying on its own moral leadership, the United States urged other countries to create commissions to do the same; 17 nations did so. Our own government's response came in 1998 when, by statute that was demonstrably bipartisan, Congress created the President's Advisory Commission on Holocaust Assets in the U.S.

The commission, which I chaired, reported its unanimous analysis of those assets that had come under U.S. control during and after World War II. Thus it is dismaying that the Bush administration has been fighting hard against the interests of Holocaust survivors in the most recent struggle for restitution. In the matter of the Hungarian Gold Train, the United States refuses to compensate thousands of Holocaust survivors whose property was misused by the U.S. government itself.

Our work documented one instance, among others, that we specifically called 'an egregious failure of the U.S. to follow its own policy regarding restitution of Holocaust victims' property after World War II.''

In 1944, Germany's occupation of Hungary included the swift and systematic confiscation of property belonging to Jews, Romas and others, even giving receipts. A train loaded with more than two dozen boxcars of such stolen loot as art, religious items, Persian rugs and thousands of wedding rings was taken to Austria. After the war, this train was turned over to the U.S. Army, which was obligated by U.S. policy and law, to return its contents to their rightful owners.

Instead, as evidence has shown, the property was mishandled. U.S. officials declared the property's national origin and ownership ''unidentifiable.'' No inventory was made. There was widespread looting, including improper requisitions of property by senior U.S. military officers.

Eventually, with its value plummeting, the United States auctioned off the remaining items in 1948. Proceeds went to refugee organizations, but they did not go to the Hungarian owners, who were begging for their property's return.

Since publication of this particular study in 1999, more research brought new and confirming facts to light. Surely some feared that their disclosure would taint the Army's reputation. But the commission closed its doors in 2000 believing that we had provided the work for an historic moral reckoning, in the best traditions of our nation.

Unfortunately, since taking office, the Bush administration has ardently worked to block the Gold Train survivors from achieving restitution. Justice Department attorneys have deployed an array of technical devices -- asserting the same arguments of statute of limitations, sovereign immunity and proof of property that the United States so adamantly deplored and successfully urged other nations to forswear.

The department even conveniently questioned the bipartisan conclusions of the commission and has wrongfully claimed that we somehow backed away from our own findings, a claim whose inaccuracy I have addressed recently in the Congressional Record. The commission stands by its report: We never did retract it, undermine it or walk away from it. It is disgraceful that the administration now asserts otherwise.

It is not too late for the Bush administration to right this wrong. Officials should work in the current mediation with survivors to achieve a fair and immediate settlement, paying reasonable compensation. These Holocaust survivors are elderly, many frail and ailing, some dying. Continued delay is the enemy of justice. In this greatest of moral issues, courtroom antics, legal tricks and political posturing have no place.

The United States appears to be in retreat from a hard-won global consensus on the importance of historic justice. The idea that nations and corporations should look into their own pasts and act accordingly -- regardless of who might have been at fault, or how painful it may be -- was a proud achievement. Then, the United States had the standing to advance it. With its conduct in the Gold Train case, the U.S. government is at risk of squandering that moral standing.

Edgar Bronfman, president of the World Jewish Congress, served as chairman of the President's Advisory Commission on Holocaust Assets in the United States during its entire tenure from 1998 to 2000.

 

PUBLISHED IN THE MIAMI HERALD, OCTOBER 15, 2004.

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Posted: 21/January/2006 at 11:52 | IP Logged  |  Copy the link in order to refer to this post Quote odin

twiw wrote:
25 million $.

The USA did alright there then.

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twiw
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Posted: 21/January/2006 at 12:59 | IP Logged  |  Copy the link in order to refer to this post Quote twiw

Sure. They US pays $millions for the $billions they STOLE from the Jews. On the other had the US expects countries like Switzerland to pay $billions for the money that remains in Swiss banks as unaccounted. Remind you that the Swiss did not STEAL anything.

This makes perfect sense - particularly in the light that it was the US that pressured other countries into paying compensations for the Jews, organized $billion lawsuits against others, while opposing the same for its own country.

The US did and was doing so much right here.

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twiw
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Posted: 21/January/2006 at 13:17 | IP Logged  |  Copy the link in order to refer to this post Quote twiw

Oh, and Tri: In 1946, the value of the Nazi gold in Swiss banks was $258 million.

Just to give you an impression how much the US stole from the Jews with that ONE train only, besides of all the other looting the US troops have commited in occupied Germany and Austria.

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Posted: 21/January/2006 at 15:39 | IP Logged  |  Copy the link in order to refer to this post Quote TriMT7

twiw wrote:
25 million $.

It was a proper lawsuit. If that's all the damages that were awarded, it's because the plaintiffs in the case agreed to and were entitled to that much. See below for details.

twiw wrote:
Switzerland and others have paid BILLIONS.

How many billions did Switzerland spend in helping defeat the Nazis in the first place? Compare to the US.

twiw wrote:
No. the original value of the train was about $50-200 million.

But the whole train wasn't looted. It was HEAVILY looted, but as per your article, as the value of the loot was dropping, "was auctioned off and proceeds given to refugee organizations."

twiw wrote:
Thus it is dismaying that the Bush administration has been fighting hard against the interests of Holocaust survivors in the most recent struggle for restitution. In the matter of the Hungarian Gold Train, the United States refuses to compensate thousands of Holocaust survivors whose property was misused by the U.S. government itself.

I'm not surprised at all, really.

But, here is the details of the case filed in March 2005 and the agreed upon settlement, reached in September 2005:

http://www.hagens-berman.com/hgt_settlement

Date Filed: March 11, 2005
Court: U.S. District Court
Location: Florida



The landmark Hungarian Gold Train case has concluded with the final approval of the settlement agreement between the Class and the United States of America. On September 30, 2005 Judge Patricia Seitz approved the proposed settlement agreement and closed the case.

The settlement in the case of Rosner et al v. United States creates a $25.5 million settlement fund, and provides for a statement by the United States government acknowledging the events surrounding the Gold Train property. Because of the passage of time, lost documentation, and lack of an inventory, there is limited information about the specific items that were on the Gold Train and taken into U.S. custody in 1945. Thus it is very hard to fairly assess and compensate individual class members based on their personal losses. Therefore, the U.S. government and representatives for the class have agreed that a minimum of $21 million in the settlement fund be used to augment existing social welfare programs for Hungarian victims of Nazi persecution. The settlement agreement also allocates $500,000 to fund and create an archival collection of information and artifacts for the benefit of the class and other educational purposes.

The settlement class includes all persons whose personal property was seized or stolen by the Hungarian government, and all heirs, estates, assigns, and survivors of such persons.

The proposed agreement went before the Court on March 17 for preliminary approval. After approval by the Court, notice of the settlement was sent to class members by mail, through newspaper ads, and through Jewish and survivor organizational networks.

Fred F. Fielding served as court-appointed mediator in this case.

Counsel for the class is very pleased with the settlement and feel that it fairly resolves the claims that the Holocaust survivors and their heirs have against the United States government, though nothing can ever truly compensate them for what they endured. We will continue to update the Web site with additional information as it occurs.

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Posted: 24/January/2006 at 14:32 | IP Logged  |  Copy the link in order to refer to this post Quote twiw

TriMT7 wrote:

How many billions did Switzerland spend in helping defeat the Nazis in the first place? Compare to the US.

Doesn't matter. Doing good doesn't justify evil, you should know that.

It would be kind of this logic "We helped to defeat the Nazis, therefore we saved many Jews lives. This allows us to steal from the Jews. Without us they would be dead anyway".

TriMT7 wrote:
was auctioned off and proceeds given to refugee organizations."

Auctioning off others property is illegal itself. The auctioning was also - of course - protested by the rightful owners. But that didn't matter to the US.

They auctioned off the remaining bit that was not looted. It was a tiny amount compared to what was stolen.

TriMT7 wrote:
Because of the passage of time, lost documentation, and lack of an inventory, there is limited information about the specific items that were on the Gold Train and taken into U.S. custody in 1945.

Amazing. For the US "passage of time, lost documentation, and lack of an inventory, there is limited information" is a valid argument.

For the Swiss, of course, it's not.

You know, this is very exactly the (flawed) argumentation Switzerlands banks used for the Jewish assests in Swiss banks. And it was particularly America that denied the legality of such arguments.

We should have auctioned off the Jewish property we were able to identify by 100%, and for the rest we should have paid $25 million.

Who'd be the first to call us immoral thieves in case that would have happened? Yes, The USA.

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Posted: 25/January/2006 at 13:19 | IP Logged  |  Copy the link in order to refer to this post Quote TriMT7


twiw wrote:
It would be kind of this logic "We helped to defeat the Nazis, therefore we saved many Jews lives. This allows us to steal from the Jews. Without us they would be dead anyway".


Ever stop to think WHY many of the Jews involved do not hold the US angrily for the theft as they do the Swiss? I read one report of a Hungarian Jew who said just such a thing, that she had mixed feelings, because some members of the US had stolen property and that was obviously wrong, and yet she was thankful for what the soldiers had done in helping free her.

twiw wrote:
Amazing. For the US "passage of time, lost documentation, and lack of an inventory, there is limited information" is a valid argument.


Apparently the settlement is viewed by all those involved as being adequate.

twiw wrote:

We should have auctioned off the Jewish property we were able to identify by 100%, and for the rest we should have paid $25 million.

Who'd be the first to call us immoral thieves in case that would have happened? Yes, The USA.



What's your point, twiw? Trying to show that the US is hypocritical on this issue? Big whoop, add it to the pile.
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twiw
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Posted: 25/January/2006 at 16:31 | IP Logged  |  Copy the link in order to refer to this post Quote twiw

TriMT7 wrote:
stop to think WHY many of the Jews involved do not hold the US angrily for the theft as they do the Swiss?

See, the difference is the the Swiss did NOT commit theft. Sure, they acted like assholes by keeping the assets and not trying to give them back to the families of those owners they were able to locate. But they did absolutely not steal. Theft is what the US did. They stole the golden box with a big sign on it "Property of Hungarian Jews".

And the Jews ARE actually as angry at the US as they are at the Swiss, but since American robbery  - particularly when it happened against Jews in connection to WW2 - isn't something that makes it to the headlines in the US nobody cares.

Oh well, dinner's ready. To be continued later...

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